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	<title>Comments on: Orlando Arcia and Elite Fielding</title>
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	<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/</link>
	<description>Just another Baseball Prospectus Local Sites site</description>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15367</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2017 03:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Zettel</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15346</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas Zettel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2017 17:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I agree about science, and I&#039;ll be the first to admit I&#039;m not doing science here. I apologize for my short attitude with you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about science, and I&#8217;ll be the first to admit I&#8217;m not doing science here. I apologize for my short attitude with you.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2017 16:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t cite Tango because I don&#039;t have everyone&#039;s research in my head at all times. I merely Googled fielding aging curves and came up with the THT article. As I said, there is some controversy about the peak age of fielders. If I took the time to research it again and to look at my own work, I might be able to come up with a fairly reliable estimate of the peak age for SS. But I don&#039;t really have the time right now and it&#039;s not really important at this point in time. Whatever it is, it is and I&#039;m fine with it. If I made a mistake, I made a mistake. Won&#039;t be the first time, nor the last. Nicholas, the only reason I have done baseball research for the last almost 30 years is to advance knowledge in the field. I have no personal stake in any of this. Wherever the numbers take me that&#039;s where I go. Science is all about making mistakes and correcting them. Advancements in science and knowledge in general rarely follow a smooth upward path.

In any case I want to apologize for attacking you personally. That was inappropriate. If there is anything I can do for you now or in the future, such as helping you with any research, let me know and I&#039;d be happy to assist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t cite Tango because I don&#8217;t have everyone&#8217;s research in my head at all times. I merely Googled fielding aging curves and came up with the THT article. As I said, there is some controversy about the peak age of fielders. If I took the time to research it again and to look at my own work, I might be able to come up with a fairly reliable estimate of the peak age for SS. But I don&#8217;t really have the time right now and it&#8217;s not really important at this point in time. Whatever it is, it is and I&#8217;m fine with it. If I made a mistake, I made a mistake. Won&#8217;t be the first time, nor the last. Nicholas, the only reason I have done baseball research for the last almost 30 years is to advance knowledge in the field. I have no personal stake in any of this. Wherever the numbers take me that&#8217;s where I go. Science is all about making mistakes and correcting them. Advancements in science and knowledge in general rarely follow a smooth upward path.</p>
<p>In any case I want to apologize for attacking you personally. That was inappropriate. If there is anything I can do for you now or in the future, such as helping you with any research, let me know and I&#8217;d be happy to assist.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Zettel</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15318</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas Zettel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2017 11:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you don&#039;t have a problem with that, then why didn&#039;t you just properly cite Tango instead of starting this whole thing?

Tango&#039;s post does not prove what you say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you don&#8217;t have a problem with that, then why didn&#8217;t you just properly cite Tango instead of starting this whole thing?</p>
<p>Tango&#8217;s post does not prove what you say.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2017 03:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have no problem with the peak age of SS fielding being &quot;between 23 and 28&quot; as Tango says, although there is some controversy over what that peak age is.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no problem with the peak age of SS fielding being &#8220;between 23 and 28&#8243; as Tango says, although there is some controversy over what that peak age is.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Zettel</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15272</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas Zettel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2017 11:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two things:

(1) I find it ironic that you call me out for failing to use facts, and then misquote the very article you cite. Tango corrects the method to adjust his sampling:

&quot;Note that the rate column for year 1 is marked as “regressed” to avoid confusion. Now, the CHAIN column looks much more reasonable: The peak is from ages 24 to 28, and then the drop is only five plays per year. In the three years leading up to age 24, the gain averages eight plays per year.
The degree of regression will establish the peak age and the slope toward the peak age. I tried different regession values, and it always maxes out at age 28. So, that is one conclusion we can make: On average, shortstop fielding prowess peaks no later than age 28. Recall that, in the first (unregressed) table, the peak age was around 23. So, the true answer lies somewhere between these points (without regression and with maximum regression). The second chart above seems to satisfy this condition.
As for the slope toward the peak, that’s another issue. I can adjust the regression so that we have very little slope (only one fewer out per year), whereas with no regression, the slope was nine outs per year. What is the real answer? I don’t know yet. But, my guess is that the second chart above will likely be very close to the final best answer.&quot;

It looks like a median age of 27 for elite FRAA would be exactly in line with Tango&#039;s findings that shortstop fielding value maxes out at age-28.

(2) I am not a journalist. I am a fan writer. I don&#039;t have any ethical responsibilities. I am writing for fun whenever I have time, and I&#039;m not getting paid to do so. If you believe this is irresponsible, I kindly ask you to read other sources.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things:</p>
<p>(1) I find it ironic that you call me out for failing to use facts, and then misquote the very article you cite. Tango corrects the method to adjust his sampling:</p>
<p>&#8220;Note that the rate column for year 1 is marked as “regressed” to avoid confusion. Now, the CHAIN column looks much more reasonable: The peak is from ages 24 to 28, and then the drop is only five plays per year. In the three years leading up to age 24, the gain averages eight plays per year.<br />
The degree of regression will establish the peak age and the slope toward the peak age. I tried different regession values, and it always maxes out at age 28. So, that is one conclusion we can make: On average, shortstop fielding prowess peaks no later than age 28. Recall that, in the first (unregressed) table, the peak age was around 23. So, the true answer lies somewhere between these points (without regression and with maximum regression). The second chart above seems to satisfy this condition.<br />
As for the slope toward the peak, that’s another issue. I can adjust the regression so that we have very little slope (only one fewer out per year), whereas with no regression, the slope was nine outs per year. What is the real answer? I don’t know yet. But, my guess is that the second chart above will likely be very close to the final best answer.&#8221;</p>
<p>It looks like a median age of 27 for elite FRAA would be exactly in line with Tango&#8217;s findings that shortstop fielding value maxes out at age-28.</p>
<p>(2) I am not a journalist. I am a fan writer. I don&#8217;t have any ethical responsibilities. I am writing for fun whenever I have time, and I&#8217;m not getting paid to do so. If you believe this is irresponsible, I kindly ask you to read other sources.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15253</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2017 04:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15253</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As far as &quot;picking your poison&quot; you don&#039;t get to do that for &quot;research&quot; like this. It is your responsibility as a &quot;journalist&quot; to report all of the relevant data. If all of the data lead down the road of, &quot;we cannot say whether so-and-so is a good, great, average or below average fielder,&quot; which is clearly the case once you note and report the credible fielding data, then it is your ethical responsibility to report that. You don&#039;t get to choose the metric, if several of them are credible, which they all are (DRS, UZR, etc.) that supports your argument while ignoring the ones that don&#039;t. That is irresponsible, unethical journalism. When you partake in that kind of journalism be prepared  to be called onto the mat or worse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as &#8220;picking your poison&#8221; you don&#8217;t get to do that for &#8220;research&#8221; like this. It is your responsibility as a &#8220;journalist&#8221; to report all of the relevant data. If all of the data lead down the road of, &#8220;we cannot say whether so-and-so is a good, great, average or below average fielder,&#8221; which is clearly the case once you note and report the credible fielding data, then it is your ethical responsibility to report that. You don&#8217;t get to choose the metric, if several of them are credible, which they all are (DRS, UZR, etc.) that supports your argument while ignoring the ones that don&#8217;t. That is irresponsible, unethical journalism. When you partake in that kind of journalism be prepared  to be called onto the mat or worse.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15252</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2017 04:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot; If you have proof otherwise, I’d love to see it.&quot;

OK

http://www.hardballtimes.com/fielding-aging-curves/

&quot;What this chart shows is that there’s a defensive peak for shortstops from ages 22 to 24, and then a long progression downward as the shortstop ages.&quot;

Median (or mean) age for percentiles don&#039;t tell you peak age for anything. There are different players at different ages. The only ones that survive at SS at age 27 or 28 are the best ones, defensively.

In order to estimate peak age or aging curves for anything, you must use matched pairs otherwise known as the delta method. Before you write articles like this I suggest you familiarize yourself with this concept. Tango, me and others have been writing about it since you were probably in diapers.

So, no, I am not wrong. I&#039;ve been doing aging curves and defensive analysis probably since before you were born. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; If you have proof otherwise, I’d love to see it.&#8221;</p>
<p>OK</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/fielding-aging-curves/" rel="nofollow">http://www.hardballtimes.com/fielding-aging-curves/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;What this chart shows is that there’s a defensive peak for shortstops from ages 22 to 24, and then a long progression downward as the shortstop ages.&#8221;</p>
<p>Median (or mean) age for percentiles don&#8217;t tell you peak age for anything. There are different players at different ages. The only ones that survive at SS at age 27 or 28 are the best ones, defensively.</p>
<p>In order to estimate peak age or aging curves for anything, you must use matched pairs otherwise known as the delta method. Before you write articles like this I suggest you familiarize yourself with this concept. Tango, me and others have been writing about it since you were probably in diapers.</p>
<p>So, no, I am not wrong. I&#8217;ve been doing aging curves and defensive analysis probably since before you were born. <img src="http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Zettel</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15247</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas Zettel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2017 23:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15247</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your first point is not true. If you look at the Top Percentile of SS in terms of FRAA, the median age is 27. The median age of the 98th percentile is also 27. Median age of the 95th percentile? Also 27. That&#039;s not an early peak. If you have proof otherwise, I&#039;d love to see it.

UZR/150 and DRS don&#039;t like Arcia right now. Inside Edge loves him, and so does FRAA. So, pick your poison, I guess. If you love zone stats, then Arcia looks bad. DRS, he&#039;s a wash. FRAA and Inside Edge, he looks strong. Draw from that what you like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your first point is not true. If you look at the Top Percentile of SS in terms of FRAA, the median age is 27. The median age of the 98th percentile is also 27. Median age of the 95th percentile? Also 27. That&#8217;s not an early peak. If you have proof otherwise, I&#8217;d love to see it.</p>
<p>UZR/150 and DRS don&#8217;t like Arcia right now. Inside Edge loves him, and so does FRAA. So, pick your poison, I guess. If you love zone stats, then Arcia looks bad. DRS, he&#8217;s a wash. FRAA and Inside Edge, he looks strong. Draw from that what you like.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/05/03/orlando-arcia-and-elite-fielding/#comment-15221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2017 03:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/?p=8798#comment-15221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure off the top of my head what the peak age for SS defense is, but I can tell you that defense at SS peaks really early. So even at age 22, we&#039;re probably not too far from peak defensive age.

Mostly, though, have you looked at UZR and DRS? Both have him minus in 2016 and around zero in 2017. Now, I&#039;m not saying that FRAA is &quot;wrong&quot; or a &quot;bad metric,&quot; but if you combine FRAA with DRS and UZR, you are not going to conclude that Arcia is an &quot;elite fielder.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure off the top of my head what the peak age for SS defense is, but I can tell you that defense at SS peaks really early. So even at age 22, we&#8217;re probably not too far from peak defensive age.</p>
<p>Mostly, though, have you looked at UZR and DRS? Both have him minus in 2016 and around zero in 2017. Now, I&#8217;m not saying that FRAA is &#8220;wrong&#8221; or a &#8220;bad metric,&#8221; but if you combine FRAA with DRS and UZR, you are not going to conclude that Arcia is an &#8220;elite fielder.&#8221;</p>
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